sandiegoviewer
Tourist
Reged: 10/15/06
Posts: 99
Loc: San Diego
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IMPORTANT POSTING INFORMATION BEFORE YOU POST YOUR GUESS WHERE THE PLANE MAY BE :- PLEASE READ------------------------------>THIS POST
added by danescombe 09.40hrs UCT . 10.09.07 ****************************************************************************************************************************
(CNN) -- Searchers were combing rugged terrain in western Nevada on Tuesday for billionaire adventurer Steve Fossett, missing since he left a private airstrip Monday morning, a Civil Air Patrol spokeswoman said. A Bellanca Super Decathlon, an aircraft like the one Steve Fossett took off in around 9 a.m. Monday. 2 of 2 Fossett, 63, who has broken numerous flying records, was in a single-engine plane when he took off Monday in good flying conditions, said Civil Air Patrol Maj. Cynthia S. Ryan.He had planned to return to the Flying M Ranch at noon. The search began about six hours later, Ryan said.Fossett did not file a flight plan, which is not required on flights using visual navigation. When he left, he had four to five hours of fuel for flight, said Ryan. Fossett is the first person to solo around the world in a balloon, and has broken numerous other flight records. Ryan said authorities are analyzing information from radar intelligence to try to track Fossett. Six search aircraft with three-man crews, coping with gusty winds, are taking part in the Nevada search. Helicopters and planes from Naval Air Station Fallon, in Fallon, Nevada, the Nevada Air National Guard and the California Highway Patrol are helping. http://beta.cnn.com/2007/US/09/04/fossett.missing/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Edited by danescombe (09/14/07 06:45 AM)
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danescombe
Master Guide
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 10233
Loc: UK
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Branson turns to Google to find Steve Fossett
Rescue crews expressed hope of finding missing aviation pioneer Steve Fossett, as Sir Richard Branson called on Google to help trace his friend using its satellite mapping service Story
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scott_s
Tourist
Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 3
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On an related thread, this posted
"This is where the world could help. They are taking photos of all this area as there flying over at 5000 ft . Release these photos to Google Earth and let the world help find the plane. Instead of 50 eyes looking you have 100,000 eyes looking. If people can spot a submarine in the middle of the ocean we can find a plane in Nevada.
The civil air patrols comment was clueless on "well have you ever tried to zoom in with Google." guess she didn’t see the Katrina photos. The resolution does have a factor but you those were taken i belive above 10k feet. "
As a Civil Air Patrol member, and someone working in the satellite industry, I need to clarify a few things about this post
1. It may be a few days before DG or GeoEye satellites fly over, during the day, with good weather, so they can even photograph the area in question. Not to mention the time it takes to post process the imagery. Google earth is not close to live imagery. Lots of that imagery you see on GEearth is a few years old.
2. The resolution from satellite is not that good as you might think. When you look at the US, you are probably looking at imagery taken from aircraft, flying over a period of weeks. If you want to see true satellite imagery, in Google Earth, go to some remote part of Africa, that is where you will get the true satellite imagery, not something that what was flown by air. Commercial satellites with the ability to resolve something a meter in size will not be launched until later this year.
3. The CAP aircraft flying at 5000ft do not the capability to care the types of camera needed to produce imagery that could be placed on Google earth, in any systematic way. Most aircraft are Cessna’s 172 and 182, they are already near the weight limit with crew and fuel. Adding a camera with the necessary position gear would (1) be a hard fit (2) limits the fuel which limits flight time making the range very limited.
4.The camera to do make useful photos costs 10ks of dollars each, CAP does not have a budget to buy stuff like that.
5. CAP does have a few aircraft, large enough, and carrying ARCHER system, which is similar to a photographic camera system, but there are less then 50 across the country and to get them and trained crew, all to Nevada is not really practical, since CAP crews are volunteers, who have to ask off from work to go off and fly these missions. Pulling trained crews from around the country is not easy.
6. Even if the photos were collected, they still need to be tied to ground, so you know where that pixel actually sits on the ground. This is not a quick or cheap operation, it would add days to the preparation of the imagery for Google Earth.
7. Given that all the imagery was available, then if the air plane landed in one piece, a user of Google earth could spot it, but since airplanes tend to impact the ground at high speeds, and leave a burn mark and many small pieces scattered over an impact area, with many of the pieces small enough to be hidden under brush. Could a casual user see it?
You could argue that you could spot a wing, but (a) is the wing sitting at angle that makes it look like a wing when viewed from above? (b) Can you recognize a wing when its not part of an air frame? (c) Is the wing a simple white color, or as I think it is has been painted with design, making it less wing looking from a distance?
I think it is a great that people want to help in the search, but people need to understand what limitations of the system are. The CAP Major who did not answer the Google Earth question was not clueless; she just knows the limitations of the real world, and knows how inane of question that was.
My rant is over, Thank you for your time.
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JasonBo
Tourist
Reged: 08/18/05
Posts: 270
Loc: Austin Texas
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Thanks for your post
A couple things to note,
The camera tat do take these pictures can go straight to data without being developed the old method.
The price of alot of camera can be expensive but there are cheaper just as good alternatives.
Civil air patrol is already working with the Airforce and they do already have these assests why not put them in place.
Google is a tool that can be expanded on in many ways. If i did not look outside the box 2 years ago you would have never saw Katrina the way you did. I like to change history and i belive for situations like these Google Earth could be a powerful tool to do that.
Other comments i heard in yesterdays briefing were, they had to fly over the same area 2 or 3 times because of shadows.
They said they have been using this method over 60 years and it has seemed to work.
Think about these two things, knowing that there is a better method, Now put your best friend your father or family in Steve Fosetts place. What would you want to do.
Just wanted to add there are many 3rd party companys doing great work one of the more impressive is digital, oblique aerial imaging. http://www.elocallink.tv/vp2/vp35_show.php?vid=VGtVZ1YzVjpQag
-------------------- Aim: jasonbtwc
Edited by JasonBo (09/06/07 10:19 AM)
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slplsinbstn
Tourist
Reged: 01/02/06
Posts: 3
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I found a possible crash site. The resolution is not great but it is something that could be a possibility. Maybe someone can get some better res then me.
located at
38-34'-15.91 N 119-11'50.01 W
good luck
slpls
Edited by slplsinbstn (09/06/07 10:29 AM)
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scott_s
Tourist
Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 3
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Yes the cameras are digital, but after you take the photo, you still need to tie it to the ground, so you know where to photo goes. This means you must figure out to a pretty high degree where the camera was and what angle it was looking when the photo was taken, since you have to resample the photo to remove differences in scale in near and far pixels. You also need to know enough information about the position to know how to rotate the camera so it the photo is actually pointing north. The 172 and 182s are pretty rough rides, so camera positioning is a bit tricky.
As far as using USAF equipment, CAP is partially funded as the official auxiliary of the USAF. CAP gets enough money to maintain the fleet of aircraft, some training, and missions cost (fuel). One reason the USAF funds CAP, is to handle these type of missions. CAP has two advantages in this regard:
(1) To see something from the air, low and slower is usually better, and CAP aircraft are slow and can fly relatively low. (CAP is sometimes called the Low-Slow Air Force),
(2) To put it bluntly, cost. For an hour of flying time, with the volunteer aircrew and the light aircraft being used, it cost around $200 for CAP to fly. It may cost $2000 an hour for an Air Force flight crew, with their aircraft to fly. Last I heard there were 7 CAP aircraft, flying at least 8 hours a day, so $11,200 vs $112,000 a day. It is very sad to say that life saving comes down to accounting, but money is always a finite resource.
As far as new technology, CAP is upgrading, new communication equipment, the ARCHER system for multi-spectral searching, research using FLIR, and wide spread use of GPS to accurately report where a crash site is. It takes time to purchase, equip, and train people to use this gear.
I deeply appreciate the tough times the Fosetts are going through, and I pray that they find Mr. Fosetts soon. I know from experience that the CAP members in Nevada and California would love more people and better equipment, as they stay focused on finding the missing pilot.
CAP tries its best, doing what they can, with what they have. CAP takes this duty very seriously, as last month showed, when during a search for a missing fisherman, a three member flight crew lost their lives.
Finally, as far a Google Earth, in CAP I have used it myself, on missions for planning. I am sure its abilities will grow, but for now, people need to realize that even Google has limits.
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JasonBo
Tourist
Reged: 08/18/05
Posts: 270
Loc: Austin Texas
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Quote:
Yes the cameras are digital, but after you take the photo, you still need to tie it to the ground, so you know where to photo goes. This means you must figure out to a pretty high degree where the camera was and what angle it was looking when the photo was taken, since you have to resample the photo to remove differences in scale in near and far pixels. You also need to know enough information about the position to know how to rotate the camera so it the photo is actually pointing north. The 172 and 182s are pretty rough rides, so camera positioning is a bit tricky.
As far as using USAF equipment, CAP is partially funded as the official auxiliary of the USAF. CAP gets enough money to maintain the fleet of aircraft, some training, and missions cost (fuel). One reason the USAF funds CAP, is to handle these type of missions. CAP has two advantages in this regard:
(1) To see something from the air, low and slower is usually better, and CAP aircraft are slow and can fly relatively low. (CAP is sometimes called the Low-Slow Air Force),
(2) To put it bluntly, cost For an hour of flying time, with the volunteer aircrew and the light aircraft being used, it cost around $200 for CAP to fly. It may cost $2000 an hour for an Air Force flight crew, with their aircraft to fly. Last I heard there were 7 CAP aircraft, flying at least 8 hours a day, so $11,200 vs $112,000 a day. It is very sad to say that life saving comes down to accounting, but money is always a finite resource .
As far as new technology, CAP is upgrading, new communication equipment, the ARCHER system for multi-spectral searching, research using FLIR, and wide spread use of GPS to accurately report where a crash site is. It takes time to purchase, equip, and train people to use this gear.
I deeply appreciate the tough times the Fosetts are going through, and I pray that they find Mr. Fosetts soon. I know from experience that the CAP members in Nevada and California would love more people and better equipment, as they stay focused on finding the missing pilot.
CAP tries its best, doing what they can, with what they have. CAP takes this duty very seriously, as last month showed, when during a search for a missing fisherman, a three member flight crew lost their lives.
Finally, as far a Google Earth, in CAP I have used it myself, on missions for planning. I am sure its abilities will grow, but for now, people need to realize that even Google has limits .
So what i read out of this is
CAP is underfunded not well maintained not equiped to todays technology. (personal opinion)
Understanding google earth is just a Viewing tool and the data that you can put into is what makes google earth a definative resource. So google in no way has limits, the data we add to it is the limit.
"Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them."
Francis, Brendan
Edit
Archer system is good but cheaper methods are available and can be mounted to a plane
Pict Earth (think outside the box)
-------------------- Aim: jasonbtwc
Edited by JasonBo (09/06/07 11:50 AM)
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scott_s
Tourist
Reged: 06/05/05
Posts: 3
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So what i read out of this is
CAP is underfunded not well maintained not equiped to todays technology. (personal opinion)
Understanding google earth is just a Viewing tool and the data that you can put into is what makes google earth a definative resource. So google in no way has limits, the data we add to it is the limit.
"Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them."
Francis, Brendan
CAP is funded for its mission, but as with any organization, it could always use more. Also like any organization, change is hard, and new ways and new tools take time to propagate.
Google Earth is limited by the data we put in. As Google Map mashups show, Google build wonderfuls tools to help people invent new and exciting applications. If Google or someone else could get real time imagery, I am sure we would be watching.
Who knows, maybe in a few years Preditor like drones will be looking for the missing and we can all watch the live feed, im'ng back what we see.
Regretfully, not today.
Thank you for the discussion, and if I may, I am going to borrow your quote. That is a very true statement.
With a prayer for the Fossets,
S.
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Hill
Master Guide
Reged: 10/31/04
Posts: 9336
Loc: Southern California
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I remember when Jim Gray went missing in his boat off San Francisco, current satellite photos were searched using Amazon's Mechanical Turk. He was never found but then again the area was mostly clouded over and was experiencing rough seas. There doesn't seem to be a similar opportunity to sign up for a search this time.
EDIT: Obviously, the situation changed and Mechanical Turk was employed.
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no_stranger
Master Guide
Reged: 10/26/05
Posts: 4580
Loc: Western Australia GMT+8
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Update;
Searchers expand search for lost aviator Steve Fossett; no sign after 4 days
1 minute ago
MINDEN, Nev. (AP) — Search teams dramatically expanded their hunt for adventurer Steve Fossett to encompass close to 26,000 square kilometres of rugged mountains and desert Thursday after nearly four discouraging days yielded no trace of his single-engine plane.
"As you can imagine, trying to make that needle stand out in a haystack that big is going to be a real challenge," Nevada Civil Air Patrol Maj. Cynthia Ryan said. "It's going to be frustrating for a lot of people who were hoping for results early on."
Ten airplanes and helicopters made repeated passes over a search area the size of Massachusetts known for its 3,000-metre peaks, strong winds and unrelenting harshness.
Despite the massive search, there have been only a few false leads and no signals from the emergency locator beacon aboard Fossett's Bellanca Citabria Super Decathlon.
The best hope was that the world-famous adventurer used his long-proven survival skills to stay alive, rationing the food and water that was in the plane.
The expansion of the search suggested that rescuers have few clues about which direction Fossett was flying when he took off Monday from a private airstrip owned by hotel mogul Barron Hilton. The terrain, a mix of bare desert playas, ravines and mountain ranges, makes the quest to find Fossett especially tough.
"It is difficult to see anything on the ground unless it's a semi-truck on the road," said Robert Todd, a Nevada Civil Air Patrol pilot involved in the search. "But an airplane that's hiding from you, if you will, is not going to be seen readily."
Todd said rescuers "can be right on top of the aircraft and still not see it."
The search for the 63-year-old aviator has captivated attention worldwide because of Fossett's past exploits and his connection to British billionaire Richard Branson, who has bankrolled many of Fossett's missions.
Fossett became rich operating a series of Chicago-based investment firms before turning his attention to long-distance and high-speed pursuits. He has set 116 land and air records, including becoming the first person to circle the globe in a balloon solo and the first to do so in a plane alone without refuelling.
Many of his pursuits also have ended in failure, requiring costly and daring rescues. That included a 1998 attempt to circumnavigate the globe that ended when his balloon crashed into the Coral Sea about 800 kilometres off Australia's coast.
"This man is such an adventurer, a man's man if you will," Todd said. "He would probably walk out 30 or 40 miles pretty easily - if he were still able to. But if he's hurt, then he may not be able to."
Since it began, the search has expanded from 1,500 square kilometres. The search area is now 300 to 500 kilometres wide and stretches almost 200 kilometres south from the small town of Yerington, Nev., to Bishop, Calif., on the eastern side of the Sierra Nevada.
To the north, authorities also are scanning the Black Rock Desert, site of the annual Burning Man counterculture gathering that ended last weekend.
Fossett did not file a flight plan, which is not unusual for pilots of small airplanes. But that made it harder to determine which direction he may have been flying.
The sense of urgency to determine where Fossett went was evident Thursday when authorities began using sonar to search Walker Lake, about 25 kilometres northeast of the private ranch where Fossett had been staying. They hoped to rule it out as a possible crash site.
The Nevada National Guard also was using night flights equipped with thermal imaging systems to keep the search going around the clock. It could last for weeks, Ryan said.
"We have every intention of working this search until we come to a conclusion where we know what happened," she said.
Source: The Canadian Press. http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iw33E5X8C6QXlTKoJoq-cV2b7qJw
-------------------- Link to some support answers from the past.
Jump to Google Earth Support Groups.
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