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HillModerator
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Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope?
      #337780 - 03/04/06 08:13 PM

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Gas hydrates may play important roles in the global carbon cycle and rapid climate
change or they may be a potential source for future exploitation of methane as an energy resource.

This map, duplicated with placemarks on the GE globe, shows the approximate location of methane hydrates (also known as clathrates ) on continental slopes, continental rises, and tundra.


In the ocean depths where the shallow continental shelves drop off to toward the deep ocean basins, lie the continental rise and continental slope. Much sediment with high organic content is deposited here in an area of near freezing temperatures and crushing pressures. As organic material in the sediment breaks down, it releases methane gas. The pressure is so great that instead of bubbling to the surface, it becomes a frozen ice that is part water and part frozen methane (a clathrate ). A chunk of this material will burn when exposed to a flame. Allowed to simply melt, it will release a large quantity of methane gas, as much as 30 liters of gas for each liter of methane hydrate. Herein lies a hope and a danger.
Estimates of the volume of these deposits predict anywhere from 300 to 3000 years of methane fuel tied up in known and predicted deposits. But practical methods of mining the deposits have yet to be developed and drilling on the slopes have the potential of destabilizing them and creating giant slumps could move a large enough volume of water to cause tsunamis.
Another proposal, even further from reality with present technology, is to inject carbon dioxide gas into the deep ocean sediments to form CO2 clathrates, thus removing it from the atmosphere and thus cutting down on greenhouse gasses.
But there is a darker side to methane ices, which also have formed in the Arctic tundra and are held deep in the permafrost. As global temperatures continue to rise, permafrost is melting. The amount of frozen methane deposits thawing will increase. Methane, which is ten times more efficient as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, will cause the temperature to increase more, raising sea levels and ocean temperatures, in turn releasing more methane. The oceanic methane theoretically will remain stable as the oceans get deeper and sea floor pressures increase. But, if the oceans warm, and they are already warming (though at a slower rate than the atmosphere) a critical point could be passed and large releases of methane gas from the continental slope deposits could occur, adding much more greenhouse-enhancing methane to the atmosphere. Climate change would surge ahead.

Links:
PDF http://www.geosociety.org/pubs/gsatoday/gsat9811.htm

http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/gas-hydrates/title.html

http://www.ornl.gov/info/reporter/no16/methane.htm

http://utopiasprings.com/methane.htm

http://www-ocean.tamu.edu/Quarterdeck/QD5.3/macdonald.html

http://www-ocean.tamu.edu/Quarterdeck/QD5.3/sassen.html

http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arch/11_9_96/bob1.htm

http://www.science.psu.edu/iceworms/iceworms.html

Edited by Hill (07/08/07 06:52 PM)


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JumbleModerator
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Hill]
      #337795 - 03/04/06 08:29 PM

Fascinating info!! And we thought it was just "man" who would be blamed for global warming!!

Gee..makes you wonder about methane releaese in the Bermuda Triangle!

--------------------
There are none so blind......


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HillModerator
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More Gas hydrates in the Gulf of Mexico [Re: Hill]
      #338466 - 03/05/06 10:22 AM


This map from www-ocean.tamu.edu shows more gas hydrates.


Caption:.This colorized image of the ocean surface taken from the space shuttle makes the sea and clouds look like an artist's abstract dabs and brushstrokes. The bright streaks are oil slicks produced by hydrocarbons seeping naturally from seafloor vents.

The hydrates support a community of organisms, including the iceworm.


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JumbleModerator
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Hill]
      #338882 - 03/05/06 05:34 PM

Timely concerns here. Though not exactly into the same science, Todays New York Times states a concern for global warming.
Registration required, and link will expire so here is...

The text:

Quote:

Warm, Warmer, Warmest

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF




One of the hottest environmental battles has been over oil drilling in the coastal plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, but the sad reality is that much of the Arctic plain will probably be lost anyway in this century to rising sea levels.





That should be our paramount struggle: to stop global warming. It threatens not only the Arctic plain, but also low-lying areas around the world with 100 million inhabitants. And it could be accelerating because of the three scariest words in climate science: positive feedback loops.





Bear with me now: a positive feedback loop occurs when a small change leads to an even larger change of the same type. For example, a modest amount of warming melts ice in northern climates. But the bare ground absorbs three times as much heat as ground covered by snow or ice, so the change amplifies the original warming. Even more ice melts, more heat is absorbed, and the spiral grows.





That feedback loop is well understood and part of climate models, but others aren't.





For example, perhaps the biggest single source of uncertainty about whether Lower Manhattan will be underwater in 2100 has to do with the glaciers of Greenland. If Greenland's ice sheet melted completely, that alone — over centuries — would raise the oceans by 23 feet. And those glaciers are dumping much more water into the oceans than they did a decade ago, according to two satellite surveys just published, but the studies disagree on the amounts.





Positive feedback seems to be at work. As a glacier melts a little, the water trickles down to the rock and lubricates the glacier's slide toward the sea. So, because of this and other effects, some of Greenland's glaciers are now, in glacial terms, rocketing toward the sea at 7.5 miles a year.





Here's another positive loop. The Arctic permafrost may hold 14 percent of the world's carbon, but as it melts, some of its carbon dioxide and methane are released, adding to the amount of greenhouse gases. So more permafrost melts.





Likewise, millions of years ago, warming oceans with vast amounts of methane in their depths had great episodes of methane belching, which added to the greenhouse effect then. I don't expect the oceans to burp in the same massive way tomorrow, but if they did, no one would know how to fit those unmannerly oceans into a climate model.





Part of the challenge in modeling climate is that we're already off the charts with greenhouse gases like nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide and methane. "We've driven them out of the range that has existed for the last one million years," noted James Hansen, NASA's top climate expert. "And the climate has not fully responded to changes that have already occurred."





In fairness, there are also negative feedback loops, which could dampen change. For example, warmer temperatures could mean more snow over Antarctica, implying an initial buildup of the Antarctic ice sheet. The added ice could slow global warming and rising sea levels. But a new study just published in Science Express says that the Antarctic ice sheet is already thinning significantly — raising more alarms and casting doubt on that negative feedback.





In any case, it's clear that negative feedback loops in climatology are much less common than positive loops, which amplify change and leave our climate both unstable and vulnerable to human folly.



Still with me?





Look, I know that climate science can be — here's a shock — boring! But it's better for us to slog through it now than for coming generations to slog through the rising waters of, say, Manhattan. It may be more exciting to thump the table about Iraq or torture — or even the preservation of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge — and those are all hugely important. But global warming may ultimately be the greatest test we face as stewards of our planet. And so far we're failing catastrophically.





"Historians of science will be brutal on us," said Jerry Mahlman, a climate expert at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. "We are right now in a state of deep denial about how severe the problem is. Political people are saying, 'Well, it's not on my watch.' They're ducking for cover, because who's going to tell the American people?"





We know what to do: energy conservation, gas taxes and carbon taxes, more renewable energy sources like wind and solar power, and new (and safe) nuclear power plants. But our political system is paralyzed in the face of what may be the single biggest challenge to our planet.





"Are we an intelligent species or not?" Dr. Mahlman asked. "Right now, the evidence is against it."





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pentadij
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Hill]
      #340399 - 03/07/06 04:00 AM

View in Google Earth         View in Google Maps (649 downloads)


Another effect that could result from global warming would be the north Atlantic Currrent turning off. At present this brings enormous volumes of warm water from the Carribean north to western Europe warming our climate considerably. If the current stops flowing its going to get a lot colder in the UK, an ironic effect of global warming, see the attachment for more detail and a map.

See:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2004/0415gyre.html

--------------------
**********************************************

Geographer, Web Lecturer and GE Freak
Weekly GE Tutorials at:
www.kokae.com

**********************************************


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Gerardo64
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Reged: 09/07/05
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Jumble]
      #351930 - 03/17/06 12:13 PM

Interesting post Hill. You were right in making that question (in the title). After reading the links you gave I have my personal conclusion about this. I have to ignore some things “scientist” said in those pages like global warming it´s a fake and it´s actually cooling, or that people that talk about warming are “scholars” but let´s try to answer the title.

About using methane to produce energy

-They recognize that they don´t know how to produce energy without freeing methane to the air. So we could be polluting with a 10 times worst element than carbon.
-They say that coastlines could develop this “industry”, new dasalinezed sea water plants could be made for this, and produce electricity also (like the one in Aruba). All this develop to use a non-renewable energy, like oil.
-US Congress gave u$s 47.5 million to be used from 1999 to 2004 in this research. ( I would like to know how much money gave the Congress for Solar Energy research.)
-Wich is the industry that knows a lot of this kind of possible new energy? The Oil Industry. They find it when they drill the sea. All the information & data about methane comes from them. They have the technology to make business with it in a near future. So, guess where are those people “research” dollars going to.

We are in the Oil Industry hands (by now). And there must be changes about this. One possibility is that this industry invest in solar energy, so they could be earning money with something different from oil; of course less money than today as the solar energy comes from the sky and there´s no need to explore, or drill anything to find it.

And we also must require our governments to improve Solar Energy research and stop spending our money in a specific industry business like oil.

--------------------
"No branch of the United States Government is currently involved with or responsible for investigations into the possibility of alien life on other planets or for investigating Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO's)." NASA


Disclosure Project


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HillModerator
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Gerardo64]
      #352053 - 03/17/06 01:28 PM

What I find most disconcerting is this paragraph, quoted from above:
Quote:

But there is a darker side to methane ices, which also have formed in the Arctic tundra and are held deep in the permafrost. As global temperatures continue to rise, permafrost is melting. The amount of frozen methane deposits thawing will increase. Methane, which is ten times more efficient as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, will cause the temperature to increase more, raising sea levels and ocean temperatures, in turn releasing more methane. The oceanic methane theoretically will remain stable as the oceans get deeper and sea floor pressures increase. But, if the oceans warm, and they are already warming (though at a slower rate than the atmosphere) a critical point could be passed and large releases of methane gas from the continental slope deposits could occur, adding much more greenhouse-enhancing methane to the atmosphere. Climate change would surge ahead.




We don't know if we will ever be able to use this resource for energy because of the complications of extracting the methane safely and efficiently. But warming climate will release it from thawing tundra and perhaps from marine deposits, which can lock the globe into a rapidly increasing warming. It may also set in motion cooling of some parts of the globe. Right now Europe benefits from the moderating influence of the Gulf Stream. Melting of the Arctic ice sheet may disrupt global currents, actually leaving Europe colder.


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Greg_G
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Reged: 04/08/07
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Hill]
      #942009 - 07/08/07 06:19 PM

Quote:

Gas hydrates....

In the ocean depths where the shallow continental shelves drop off to toward the deep ocean basins, lie the continental rise and continental slope. Much sediment with high organic content is deposited here in an area of near freezing temperatures and crushing temperatures.




Hello Hill,
Great info and thanks for the links. One edit for you if you don't mind. Look at the last word in the quote I have excerpted .... you probably meant pressures rather than temperatures.

regards,

GG


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HillModerator
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Greg_G]
      #942027 - 07/08/07 06:59 PM

Thanks Greg. I fixed it and a bad picture link.

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Greg_G
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Re: Greenhouse Nightmare or Energy Hope? [Re: Hill]
      #959843 - 07/29/07 10:49 AM

Anytime,
I have read this post many times since then. It is amazing, interesting and strangely motivating. I have given a lot of thought to designs that can adjust the global warming, positive feedback loop.

regards,

Greg


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