vanaj
Searcher
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Reno, NV
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The communication line with the SAR Team/people with the facts has been open since Dec 5th...
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?...rue#Post1066350
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Color me naive, but if a search team comes to me and says they have imagery that they need evaluated, I am going to assume they were careful enough to have collected imagery based on their best information. Why would they want to waste their time and ours on imagery that had no chance of containing what it is we are looking for.
Do you not remember searching images from 50 miles away and in the opposite direction he was headed, from the last known position of Fossett, this information also came from a SAR team that should have been second guessed...we know that SAR teams (maybe not all) are very weary of new technology, maybe it is from lack of knowledge of fear of replacement..but this is the 21st century and the days of using a typewriter and dial phones are over...
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I simply saw at the time (and still see) no need for me or anyone else to second guess their judgment. Thus we did not bother to pursue that line of questioning.
I'm actually stunned at how hostile some people have become over this issue and think it is completely uncalled for.
Maybe their judgment needs second guessing...and since they are asking for our help maybe they are the ones doing the second guessing...
AND since I'm the only one really pushing for the facts I would have to conclude that his last sentence was directed towards me...and that is just uncalled for...we want the facts and you as a person of Science and a programmer a person of logic I would think these questions might be high on the talk list...after all wasn't it facts that we all craved in the Fossett search..and never got from SAR...
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The clock on these questions started ticking on Dec 26th, which was Boxing Day in Canada (anyone care to explain what this is?)
Day after XMas..when items are Boxed up and returned/exchanged...
And these type of questions should have been asked upon first contact on Dec 5th...
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we need time to ask the right questions to the right people via our liaison who knows how to talk in their lingo.
What lingo...same questions we had from Fossett, or ANY search for that fact...when did he take off, where was he last seen by a person, was the radar track verified, direction of flight, fuel on board, all very basic questions.
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For today, however, we are learning as we go and must work within our limitations. This means we MUST put faith in the SAR teams we work for that they have sound reasoning for picking the imagery they have asked us to review.
And if you don't learn from history (Fossett search) you are bound to repeat it and with the same results...
Maybe you should get a copy of a free BBS and host it on your website...and move this over there...
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"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."...Calvin Coolidge 30th President of the USA.
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balmerbay
Searcher
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 287
Loc: Chesapeake Bay
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I have been asked by Ken to act as the liaison between the Boychuk Family and the other SAR groups for this mission. I have sent out initial emails introducing ourselves and what we are doing. On Monday I will contact the other SAR organizations to gather information for us to put together a briefing document for searchers to read before viewing the imagery.
I have been involved in Search and Rescue efforts for twenty years (my first air search mission was thirty years ago), and I have been involved in coordinating search’s (I was a CASARA Search Coordinator and I have completed the Canadian Forces Searchmaster course) similar to the Ron Boychuk search. I am very familiar with what the search team did and the planning that went into the search effort. I can tell you that during the search mission (and afterwards) a large number of tips and sightings would have been received and analyzed. I can assure you that the search team would have followed up on each viable sighting report until they were satisfied that it was not the missing aircraft.
For SAR Boychuk we must be disciplined and trust that the SAR teams have done their jobs and have done their jobs well. I have spotted from aircraft (fixed and rotary wing) in terrain that is similar to where Boychuk went missing and I can tell you it is a difficult thing to do. Doing a “valley shoot” well holding onto your seat in a Buffalo and still scanning out the window is no picnic.
I have also been involved in introducing new technology to the SAR community. I can tell you from past experience that SAR people are suspicious of new technology, new methodologies and new organizations coming forward. We have to prove our technology and our organization so that we can sit at the table when a new SAR mission is launched.
In order for us to move this effort forward I would ask the following things:
• I would ask for your patience and continued hard work while Ken and the team continue to put together the technology, methodologies that will make InternetSAR a success.
• I would ask for your patience while I contact and build a rapport with Ron’s family and the SAR teams that worked on the mission. From this I am confident we can gather more information and not duplicate effort or follow every newspaper story.
• I would ask that you not run off and start bombarding the family and the SAR organizations with questions, let them see InternetSAR as a professional organization that can help them in the SAR community. If you have a question you would like asked PM it to me and I would be more then willing to discuss it with you ( I have taken notes of the questions and thoughts in the earlier pages that need followup).
• I will ask you to be realistic, this is not an active search in all probability the “hot” leads that we discover will not be able to be followed up on until the spring (these are high elevations and prone to avalanches). I can also tell you that in British Columbia there are over 300 aircraft that are reported as still missing.
From this I believe there will be a time that we will be involved in the outset of a search mission and will be able to supply sightings for the active search team to followup on.
Thanks
Greg
Welcome Aboard....
I do have a question for you since you mentioned the other wrecks. Is there a list posted somewhere?
Edited by balmerbay (12/29/07 01:07 PM)
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Mooseguides
Searcher
Reged: 12/28/07
Posts: 54
Loc: Stephenville , Newfoundland
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Good to see you onboard Greg.
Al Skinner
Zone Commander
CASARA
YJT
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DemianC
Explorer
Reged: 09/29/06
Posts: 548
Loc: MA, USA / Germany
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What I was looking for wasn't so much a full blow IA tutorial so much as more of a Google Earth tutorial with screen captures helping people understand the basics. Kind of in between a full fledged IA manual and our current "getting started" I need stuff that can be directly on InternetSAR.org so that it can be part of my menuing system and people don't get lost by ending up on another site.
What's wrong with people getting the help from the website that comes with the software ...in our case Google Earth? We have the possibility of bookmarking, opening new browser tabs and new windows and most people know how to use the back button too. I mean, people are using Windows/Linux/Mac too, you want to go ahead and provide tutorials for those OS too?
C'mon...this is the internet, and last I knew it was all about links and "networking information" too. Why waste resources and manpower if another site invented that wheel already?
....so here it is.... http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/
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Take risks not to escape life, but to prevent life from escaping.
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DemianC
Explorer
Reged: 09/29/06
Posts: 548
Loc: MA, USA / Germany
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Absolutely! Just remember that we have no budget and everyone has to do their part of this on their own dime so don't bother submitting an expense report. 
There you go - getting cheep again.
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Trust me if I had the disposable income I would have a plane with a camera system that would make Mr Hubble blush...
Ya - You and me both brother.
Where the heck is Richard Branson when we need him?
Hey, What about getting him to outfit some of his airliners with cameras so that when they fly over these areas they can perform double duty. Fly passengers and packages plus take aerial photos at the same time.
Cool idea I think. Anybody got his phone number?
Pretty cool idea...since he's getting two "space planes" ready for 2008. Now that would make for some nice imagery too. 
Why don't you just ask him?
http://www.virgingalactic.com/
Virgin Galactic LLC
Country: United Kingdom
City: Crawley
Street: Manor Royal
Region: West Sussex
Postal code: RH10 9NU
Try this one..most likely an employee though
Phone: +44 207 399 366
or try to talk to the President of Virgin Galactic, Mr. Will Whitehorn, phone number and email can be found on the bottom of this page... http://www.spaceportsweden.com/Home/testsida/tabid/71/ItemID/4/View/Details/Default.aspx
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Take risks not to escape life, but to prevent life from escaping.
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gursel2
Searcher
Reged: 12/27/07
Posts: 8
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Balmerbay had asked:
I do have a question for you since you mentioned the other wrecks. Is there a list posted somewhere?
I had asked JRCC (Joint Rescue Coordination Centre) - Victoria that a couple of years ago (someone was writing a book about Canadian aviation mysteries) but they were never able to come up with the list.
In 2000 I was involved in a search mission in which we spent 14 days looking for a gentleman who went missing between 108 Mile House BC and Calgary and not a trace was ever found. Just having a look at the satellite images of the terrain you can see how a small plane could go missing for a long time.
Something else that might be of interest is that in Canada they keep a pretty good list of previously found crash sites and objects that look like crash sites. In the last number of years most crash sites have been cleaned up pretty good by the insurance company and there is not much left to see. I will look into seeing if we can get a copy of the crash site list.
Greg
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redlands19
Searcher
Reged: 09/09/07
Posts: 553
Loc: Devon UK
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Since I'm the only one really pushing for the facts
You may be the only one pushing, but I for one agree with what you are saying. Amazes me that we can aquire/be granted access to images of the quality available, yet be unable to discover if some simple details are fact or fiction.
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balmerbay
Searcher
Reged: 09/12/07
Posts: 287
Loc: Chesapeake Bay
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Quote:
Balmerbay had asked:
I do have a question for you since you mentioned the other wrecks. Is there a list posted somewhere?
I had asked JRCC (Joint Rescue Coordination Centre) - Victoria that a couple of years ago (someone was writing a book about Canadian aviation mysteries) but they were never able to come up with the list.
In 2000 I was involved in a search mission in which we spent 14 days looking for a gentleman who went missing between 108 Mile House BC and Calgary and not a trace was ever found. Just having a look at the satellite images of the terrain you can see how a small plane could go missing for a long time.
Something else that might be of interest is that in Canada they keep a pretty good list of previously found crash sites and objects that look like crash sites. In the last number of years most crash sites have been cleaned up pretty good by the insurance company and there is not much left to see. I will look into seeing if we can get a copy of the crash site list.
Greg
Thanks!!!!
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KenBarbalace
Searcher
Reged: 09/27/07
Posts: 609
Loc: Portland Maine
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Quote:
What's wrong with people getting the help from the website that comes with the software ...in our case Google Earth? We have the possibility of bookmarking, opening new browser tabs and new windows and most people know how to use the back button too. I mean, people are using Windows/Linux/Mac too, you want to go ahead and provide tutorials for those OS too?
C'mon...this is the internet, and last I knew it was all about links and "networking information" too. Why waste resources and manpower if another site invented that wheel already?
....so here it is.... http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/
I'm one step a head of you on that. I have been linking to GE userguide all along. I was just looking for something that was boiled down to the barest essentials needed for reviewing our imagery.
For now Jean and I decided to put a GE user manual on the back burner. We'll get around to eventually.... maybe...
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InternetSAR.org: Volunteers collaboratively analyzing aerial and satellite imagery to assist in search and rescue efforts.
DISCUSS ACTIVE SEARCHES: Ron Boychuk in British Columbia, Canada & Steve Fossett in Nevada, USA
My blog posts on my MTurk search experience:
Using the Internet to Revolutionize Search and Rescue
Internet search for Steve Fossett eight weeks later
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DemianC
Explorer
Reged: 09/29/06
Posts: 548
Loc: MA, USA / Germany
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..snipped the first part...
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Not spitting venom...yet...but feedback from an "Official" type in this forum would go a long way in showing appreciation for the efforts...and to prove ourselves we should be given the proper tools...and in todays world information is King...so give us the tools.
I'll just bet that I'm not the only one here (or the ones that left SF search for the same reason) thinking all this, I just happen to be the old guy that is willing to say it here...and yes after 1432 miles and hundreds and hundreds of hours online with over 1100 post and 700+ PM's I think I have the right to make the above statements.
To quote Dennis Miller.. "Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong"
Thanks vanaj, you spared me a reply! I'm still trying to catch up on this new thread but so far I'm with you on this one and the earlier posting.
@ Ken.... Mr School Principle....Sir.....you are doing it AGAIN! 
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Take risks not to escape life, but to prevent life from escaping.
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