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Thameen_Darby
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Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe
      #310630 - 02/12/06 08:22 AM

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Hello

This is a grand post. I have spent the last few days assimilating this database.

For those interested in history, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the Middle East, human rights, or refugees , this place mark may be of interest to them.

In the aftermath of the 1948 war between the Arabs and the Israelis, 800,000 Palestinians were deported, or fled, their native villages in Palestine where they lived for thousands of years. They became refuges since then. Their villages, around 700 of them, were subsequently destroyed totally or partially.

The issue of these refuges and their right to their native land remains the major obstacle to achieve a long desired peace between the Israelis and Palestinians in the Middle East's long and bitter conflict.

The post contains a list of the hundreds of destroyed Arab villages, classified by district. With links to websites that give further more detailed information about the particular village or town.

A list of the existing Arab villages and towns in the 1948 area and the 1967 area is available in another post on this community under the title "Existing Arab Localities in Mandate Palestine".


It has been a tedious work since I did not find the coordinates of the destroyed villages in one place. So I had to collect them from here and there.

Please email me for any corrections of coordinates or any updates. <thameen@hotmail.com>



Thameen Darby
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Lifta- A partially destroyed village in the Jerusalem district.

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Some Palestinians leaving their village in 1948.

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A refugee girl tending to her sick grandfather.


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Best Posts about Israel and Palestine

Edited by Thameen_Darby (09/14/06 01:10 PM)


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fkhateeb
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Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 191
Loc: My heart's in Lebanon
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #392140 - 04/19/06 03:28 PM

Hello

WOW. This is an amazing post. Thank you very much for opening the eyes of people to this great tragedy that happened to the Palestinian people. Few people understand the gravity of 800,000 people being forcibly uplifted from their land and literally forced to live in tents.

I too, actually had been working on the exact same post for some time now. I had finished the districts of Yafa, al-Ramla, Tulkarm, Acre, Nazareth, and Beersheba. I was using palestineremembered.com also to find where the towns were, but it proved to be kind of unreliableas it only noted where the towns are by the distance and direction from the district center.

My relatives were also refugees. My mother's family was forced to leave Yaffa in 1948 and flee to Amman. My father's family was forced to leave Bayt Nabala (al-Ramla district) also in 1948 and move to the Jalzone refugee camp in the West Bank. Both of my parents were born after the war on 1948 so they were both born refugees. Not many people know that the plight of the Palestinians does not end with them leaving Palestine. Going from place to place and not being welcomed anywhere is just some of what the Palestinians had to go through.

I did notice a problem with your post, though. You have Yaffa under the Acre district. Thought you might wanna fix that.

Thanks again.

--------------------
If at first you succeed, repeat.

Jerusalem Sites

Dome of the Rock and Aqsa Mosque 3D Model

Nakba - The Palestinain Catastrophe


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Gerardo64
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Reged: 09/07/05
Posts: 1276
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: fkhateeb]
      #392424 - 04/19/06 09:04 PM

Hi Thameen_Darby

Excellent post. People can´t love what they don´t know, so your work is necessary.

Thanks for sharing this.

--------------------
"No branch of the United States Government is currently involved with or responsible for investigations into the possibility of alien life on other planets or for investigating Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO's)." NASA


Disclosure Project


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TOPlanner
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Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 6
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #407258 - 05/02/06 07:55 PM

There were also hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees who were forced to flee Arab lands at the very same time, but this is not reflected in your posting. Perhaps someone should take the time to geographically document the many Jewish communities throughout the Arab world that no longer exist in order to provide some balance.

--------------------
"We hate your hate." - Broken Social Scene


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barryannarbor
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Reged: 06/08/06
Posts: 1
Bias of placemarks, propaganda use of Google Earth [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #438788 - 06/08/06 07:40 AM

The author of these placemarks has a definite bias and a purpose, which is to delegitimize the entire state of Israel. His sources are one-sided, and his description of events promotes his own agenda. This is, of course, one of the strengths or weaknesses of community maintened information sources - whoever can post material is free to do so, with no verification or editorial oversight.

1) The author of the placemarks fails to mark any Jewish settlements. His own reference material clearly notes dozens of locations, but from his presentation, one would assume that the entire area that now comprises Israel was devoid of any Jews, whatsoever.

2) The author's source material presents only one side's revisionist view of the 1948 war. For example, one would assume that the Arab armies conducted no military operations during the war. This ignores Arab assaults on Israeli settlements, and Israeli casualities.

3) He refers to the 1948 war as Al-Nakba (the Catastrophe) - a war viewed by Israeli's in a different light. Arab armies did march against Israel, attempting to destroy the State in its infancy.

4) The author attempts to state that all of the villages marked on the map were wiped out due to "ethnic cleansing." Some villages were evacuated during the course of the war (one of the miserable results of war is civilians being displaced), others due to aggression. The author chooses not to refer to the large number of Jews displaced from Arab countries. So, were the Jews of Eygpt, Morocco, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, and other nations ethnically cleansed?

Google Earth could become the location of yet another propaganda battle. Carefully consider the bias of the posts author and what he is trying to accomplish.


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Myron_J
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Reged: 09/19/05
Posts: 62
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Gerardo64]
      #445230 - 06/12/06 02:39 PM

I am a settler, on the West Bank in Kfar Etzion..a Jewish settlement, on land (purchased by Jews before 1948) that was to become part of Palestine in 1948.

I think the original post is biased, but legitamently so. It shows one perspective..in a powerful but fair way.

The original poster admits that refugees were either forced out OR FLED..We too must admit to both these possibilities and also recognize that our War of Independance was a catastrophe for the Palestinians..one that did not have to happen if Partitioin would have been accepted by the Arab World.

And we too have done wrongs. Some out of fear, or in the heat of battle, or due to need created by the rejectionism of our neighbors...or through moral insensitivity..We can not ignore our moral insensitivity.

Israel has a right to Exist! As does Palestine. There has been too much suffering. We must learn to see theirs, even if we are not totally responsible...and we must realize that we are part of the game that has created the suffering.


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Thameen_Darby
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Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #447765 - 06/13/06 10:57 AM

Waw

1472 downloads

I'm happy

Thameen

--------------------
Best Posts about Israel and Palestine


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: TOPlanner]
      #456943 - 06/16/06 01:27 PM

Dear TOPlanner


I agree 100%.

I wish I had time to do the layer of former Jewish resident areas in the Arab world. But I do not. I wish some one takes on the task.

I am interested in this and it will be an interesting layer to see.

Thameen

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Best Posts about Israel and Palestine


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
No bias [Re: barryannarbor]
      #456999 - 06/16/06 01:55 PM

Dear barryannarbor

This layer is not about politics.

The scope of this layer is very well defined. This layer is about the arabic twons and villages and beduin localities that were destroyed after the 1948 war.

Although I'm not willing to talk politics here, but I like to respond to your points that you raised:

1. I did not mark jewish settlements, because tghis is not the subject of this layer, and they are include by default in GE. If you zoom close enough you can see any existing town or localities in Israel.

If you mean to include the Jewish settlements in the wake of the 1948 war. I think that is a brilliant idea. Lets make a layer of the Jewish communities in the 1948 and add it to this layer. That will be brilliant. Plz do it.

If you are interested in Jewish localities afected by the 1948 war, or other aspects of that era, why not make a layer that adds to the richness of GE?

2. I did not include any information about the war per se. It is outside the scope of this layer. I just put the placemarks of the destroyed localities. GE is not a history book, It is a dynamic map. Any one interested in history can go back to history books.

3. Al Nakba does not refer to the 1948 war. This war is called 'The 48 War", or the "war of independence". But the term Nakba refers to breakdown of the palestinian comunity that resulted from this war and the plight of the refugees that resulted from this. This layer simply showes the places of the villages and twons where these refugees came from. So in the context of the plight of the refugees, Al nakba is a suitable term.

4. This layer does not mention the cause of the displacement of the refugees. I was careful in writing the introduction not to poin fingures. This is a complex subject that needs long articles to analyse. It is outside GE context.

The displacement of Jews from Arab countries is another subject that warrants another project by itself.

Why do not you work on this project, it will be a great addition to GE. I'll try do it when I have time if no one does it. But needs lots of preparation.

I think it would be more constructive if we try build more comprehensive projects and not only give passive cretisizm. Collective additions is what makes GE great.

I suggest that we need to work on two projects:
1. The Jewish localities in 1948.
2. The Jewish Localities in the Arab countried pre 1967.
3. The 1948 war events.

All the best,

Thameen

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Best Posts about Israel and Palestine


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webnut2000
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Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 197
Re: "Ethnic cleansing" was caused by Arab States [Re: barryannarbor]
      #459329 - 06/17/06 02:11 PM

I agree with you barryannarbor.

The remark of ethnic cleansing is a complete lie. Israel did not force anyone out.

~~~~~~~~~~
Jordanian daily, Filastin (Feb. 19, 1949): "The Arab States...encouraged the Palestinians to leave their homes, temporarily, not interfering with the invading Arab armies." Khaled al-Azam, Syrian Prime Minister in 1949 (memoirs, 1973): "We brought destruction upon the refugees, by calling on them to leave their homes." London Economist (Oct. 2, 1948): "The most potent of the factors [in the flight] were announcements made by the Palestinian-Arab Higher Committee, urging all Haifa Arabs to quit, intimating that those remaining would be regarded as renegades." Arab over-confidence prior to the war (600,000 Jews vs. 27, 000,000 Arabs) was crashed by defeat, intensifying the flight of Arabs.

Almost 200,000 refugees left BEFORE the large scale war erupted in May 1948, while the Arabs had the upper hand! Arabs left Haifa and Jaffa, while British troops were still there, pleading with them to stay.

The British Mandate ordered Arabs and Jews to evacuate towns, where they were a minority. Arabs left (e.g. Tiberias), with encouragement of Arab countries, while Jews remained (e.g. Safed and its Arabs of Algerian origin). Arab evacuation - and the fall of Abd al-Kader al-Husseini in the Castel battle - was highlighted by Arab media, triggering a Domino Effect of further evacuations.

"Arab leaders were responsible for the [Arab] flight, disseminating exaggerated rumors of Jewish atrocities, in order to incite the Arabs, thus instilling fear in the hearts of the Palestinians." (Jordanian daily, al-Urdun, April 9, 1953). Ismayil Safwat, Commander of Palestinian Operations (March, 1948): "The Jews haven't attacked any Arab village, unless attacked first."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The "author" also refers to placemarks in the middle of the desert , where no human has ever lived (or lives today).

There are no signs of any buildings (or ruins) on those placemarks from any period whatsoever. With the new resolution you would be able to see it.

I rest my case.


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localt
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Reged: 06/17/06
Posts: 1
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Propaganda [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #459977 - 06/17/06 09:07 PM

Too bad you are not checking information before posting:

1) Where the map shows 'Arab Ghawarina' is actually an Israeli town 'Qiryat Motzkin' that was founded in 1934, 14 years before you claim that 'Palestinians were deported'.

2) Arab Ghawarina is also known as 'Jisr Zerqa' which still exists as an Arab town in Israel, but about 15 miles to the north. Funny that a Jewish guy know more about your cities then you.

Discourse not related to discussion of placemark(s) removed.

Edited by esterrett (07/19/06 07:49 AM)


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: "Ethnic cleansing" was caused by Arab States [Re: webnut2000]
      #460461 - 06/18/06 02:54 AM

The Localities in the desert were beduin semi-villages.

You will not see the ruins because all villages and localities were buldozed, removed and leveled to the ground just after the war.

As for who is responsible for the refugee problem, I do not think it is the place to discuss it here. But I may advise you to read from more neutral books than the sources you cited. Beni Morris is a good start.

However, although most neutral historian agree that some form of ethnic cleansing took place, and to maintain the extereme neutrality of this post, I removed the phrase "ethnic cleansing".



Th


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Hanaq_Botas
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Reged: 01/06/06
Posts: 17
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe - Info [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #463047 - 06/19/06 04:55 AM

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Hi Thameen Darby,

Congratulations. Great that Walid Khalidi's book "All that Remains" can now be found at Google Earth.

I won't go into heated discussion now, but just give some facts:

Many villages are hard to find back, but around Jerusalem there are a few villages of which the houses are still standing. The placemarks are a little bit out of place:

Lifta might once have extended up to where your placemark is, but the leftovers are only visibly (very clearly now in relative high resolution) 300 meters north-north east, on the slopes and down into the valley. The Israeli government has all kinds of plans there, like turning it into an artist's village (because of the picturesque Arab dwellings..), but untill now the houses just keep standing, with or without their roofs. In one of the cellars I found the leftovers of a horse, (probably killed in 1948?). Some houses are more or less inhabited by squatters who took nothing more than a sleeping bag; a few on top are renovated.
Lifta is surrounded by highways now, above. And you can see another road under construction down in the valley.

Houses of Deir Yassin, where a massacre took place in 1948, are visible 650 meters north - northeast of your placemark, between the apartment buildings of the jewish religious neighbourhood Har Nof. They are in use by a psychiatric hospital now.

Al Maliha is located 1200 meters to the north of your placemark. It's inhabited now by Jews. I noticed an Israeli flag at one of the houses. Mosque and minaret seem intact; no idea what their use is now. The neirby shopping mall is called "Malcha", as is the brandnew train station.

I added placemarks with the right location. I'll check other places that I once managed to visit.

Hanaq


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Myron_J
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Reged: 09/19/05
Posts: 62
Malha-Al Maliha [Re: Hanaq_Botas]
      #463476 - 06/19/06 08:12 AM

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Hanaq:

Is that the mosque of Al Maliha to the right side of your placemark?

I take it that you were in the neighborhood. Does it look like the Mosque is just empty?

It might be nice to post a picture of the mosque or houses in the place mark.

You mention Deir Yassin. I live in the Etzion Bloc, which was overrun during the war of 1948 and its inhabitants were all killed after surrendering. Some would say this was a retalliation for the events of Deir Yassin.

The Jordanian Army that was here, on the ruins of Kfar Etzion, erected a mosque...that now houses a museum. This is not a simple thing to accept, i imagine. (We also used it as a synagogue for a while.)

The problem of holy sites that represent other people's real past and present dreams is very problematic. The Arab population of East Jerusalem is known for saving synagogues after 1948. The events after the Israeli pullout from Gush Katif took a different turn..but i think i can see where that came from, even if i don't justify it.

I am attatching a placemark of what i believe is the mosque of Zakkariya..now a small villiage of Jews who came from Kurdistan. I understand that the people of Zakkariya have made pilgrimages to the village that created some tension with the new residents. (On the other hand I have heard of interesting and positive relationships that have developed between the original Arab dwellers and the new Jewish dwellers in a number of places.)

May memories persist...but may we walk into a better future.

Myron


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Hanaq_Botas
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Reged: 01/06/06
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Re: Malha-Al Maliha [Re: Myron_J]
      #464478 - 06/19/06 04:31 PM

Hi Myron,

Yes, I was in the neighbourhood and walked up and down the small streets, but I can't say exactly which building in GE is the mosque. When I saw it, a few years ago, it was in state of neglect.
For some pictures see:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jerusalem/al-Maliha/index.html

I was not in Zakariyya. According to Walid Halidi - All that Remains, Washington 1992 (you'll find that excellent book on depopulated Palestinian villages not only in Palestinian libraries, but also in the Hebrew University in Jerusalem),
the jewish village of Zekharya was established in 1950 on village land, close to the village site.
For a picture of the Zakariyya mosque in 2002:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Hebron/Zakariyya/Picture4234.html

Hanaq


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ben_and_his_bong
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Reged: 10/07/05
Posts: 337
Loc: Here, There and Everywhere
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #474907 - 06/24/06 05:19 AM

This is an excellent and very important post. Thank you.

Peace


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AndyPol
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Reged: 08/18/05
Posts: 94
Loc: UK/France/Poland
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #475390 - 06/24/06 10:01 AM

Excellent post Thameem .

I have always had a very limited knowledge on what is a very complicated and emotive subject, my knowledge extending only as far as what I have seen on Western European news programmes I'm afraid.

I would not worry about the allegations of bias in your post.... the majority of GE historical posts could be viewed as biased, depending on what the poster's interpretation of history is. If anyone has the knowledge and time to create another post with different viewpoint then it would be great.

What I like especially about your post is that is has not degraded into a verbal battle and trading of insults that has caused the Mods to lock other posts previously. Lets hope it can continue to bring mixed, but polite views on the subject.

I not too sure that I am any clearer about the subject, but your post has certainly opened my mind to the difficulties in that part of the world.

Well done

--------------------
"To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat." - Jozef Pilsudski


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: ben_and_his_bong]
      #479180 - 06/26/06 09:33 AM

Dear Ben

Hi to you and your Bong,

Thanks for visiting the post and commeting on it.

Let me also thank you for your other contributions to GE and this forum, you are a great asset to us.

Love

Thameen


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe - Info [Re: Hanaq_Botas]
      #479220 - 06/26/06 10:05 AM

Dear Hanaq

Thank you thank you

This is the kind of feed back that is very constructive and I need.

I based my layer on a map, so I'm really amazed ow close I was ....

I'm gathering updates that I recieve via mail, now I have yours.

By the way, did you find Ein Karim exact?

Can you give me the villages that I got their location well?

I studied in Jerusalem and I visited Lefta and Ein Karin few times. Its very heart breaking for a Palestinian. I hope they do not bildoze Lifta too.

Thank you,

Thameen


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Malha-Al Maliha [Re: Myron_J]
      #479231 - 06/26/06 10:10 AM

Great Place Mark My friend Myron,

Yes I agree, the issue o former holy places is an open wound. I hope more progress will be done in this issue.

Thameen


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe Propaganda [Re: localt]
      #479249 - 06/26/06 10:23 AM

Dear Localt,

Thank you for ur update on the Jisr Al Zarqa site. I will check what you have provided and correct it in my next update if it is true.

No it is not "funny" that a Jewish guy may know better than me. Actually most of our most reliable info about the Nakba came from israeli historians who had access to the archives of the 1948 era.

The political situation of the 1948 and the UN resolutions are not the subject of this discussion, not for me at least.

Peace

Thameen




Discourse not related to discussion of placemark(s) removed.

Edited by esterrett (07/19/06 07:50 AM)


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Thameen_Darby
Tourist


Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: AndyPol]
      #479268 - 06/26/06 10:32 AM

Dear Andy

Thank you for your input and nice words.

Yes I think that it is very difficult to deal with history and make every one happy, specially with a subject which is the material of a bloddy conflict.

But I believe also that trying to understand history in as neutral tems as possible is very important for making peace.

It is sensitive to deal with history, but it creates dialoge, and dialoge dissipates fears and creatues mutual understanding. And that is good.

I visited some of ur posts and I liked them, will check the rest soon



Thameen


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Thameen_Darby
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Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 134
Loc: Jenin, Palestine.
Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: TOPlanner]
      #479328 - 06/26/06 11:02 AM

That will be a nice project

But I do not like the term " ....provide some balance...."

I hate to think that some people see in the tragedy of Eastern Jews as a BALANCE to the tragedy of Palestinian refugees.

I think it is a good idea to document the plight of the Eastern Jews who came from arab countries because it is a tragedy and because we need to understand history, not because it is a BALANCE.

Thameen


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shlomosh
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Reged: 07/11/06
Posts: 1
Only the palestinians remained as post ww2 reugees [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #505828 - 07/11/06 03:25 PM

The tragedy of being refugees was shared by over 100 million people during and after the second world war, when empires collapsed and new world order has been formed. None of those refugees have kept their status, and they integrated within the countries they were deported to. None, except the palestinians, who were less than .6% of the then refugees. The difference is that the arab states, the palestinian's hosts, would not accept the outcome of the failed war which they asserted in 1948, and maintained the refugee status to all palestinians, limiting their movement and denying them basic civil rights. Meanwhile, about the same number of jews left the same arab countries and migrated to Israel.

In India and Pakistan, where massive populations were displaced, following their independance, there are no refugee camps anymore. The same goes to Germany, Poland, Ukraine, Russia, South Korea, and many many more.

One cannot undo history, nor can the palestinians deny the sad fact that they should consider other options, rather than to pray - and act - to annihilate Israel. So far, this was the only mode they operated.


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eliboy22
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Reged: 07/12/06
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #506530 - 07/12/06 03:10 AM

I would just like to make a small correction,
the main two main problems stopping the peace procces between,
israel,and a part of its population wich refuses to see itself as part,
of the country they live in,calling themselves the palestinians,
Is:
1)For some reason the "palestinian" population wants to dump every jew in the state of israel into the sea,and they want to have the entire country.
2)Also the state of israel has no problem about the jewish and non jewish population who think israel has no right to exist,or publicly protest against its decisionsand lets them live in its country,
It would be suacide for any jew or non-jew to go and live in in "palestinian" teritorry,and say that they should become part of israel,
and let prosperity and a huge drop in crime enter their lives.
And just try to say that the so called "jihad"(wich for some reason i dont understand,it is a holy deed to purposefully blow up little kids on buses),
is wrong,and its death for you.
in isarel that does not happen,its called democracy and free speech,
While,apparently in the "palestinian territories"they understand democracy to be a corrupt election,and eanstead of free speech,
theyve got free murder.
The refugees have a right to the place they live in,of course,
But only the ones that have a valid excuse why they left the country,
aparently there where around a million others who sought it was OK to stay in israel,and di not listen to the calls of the clergy to leave,eanstead of be under the jurisdiction of the jewish infidels.
And there is this:

– Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph Sept. 6, 1948.

"The Arab state which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees."

At least half of the refugees left of their own free will,some maybe had a military record to hide,while others just left,because of the calls of the clergy o.r the hope of a invading army,in which case the arab states
that where going to send the armies should care for them,
which is mostly already the case,
as almost all of the refugees settled in those countries,
so that the job is already half done,
Now the refugees have turned into several millions,
so bringing them into israel,will cause a huge problem,
to put it mildly.


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psarj
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Reged: 01/05/06
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #506953 - 07/12/06 08:27 AM

Congratulations and thanks for the astonishing amount of work you've put into creating this set of placemarks.

I have the utmost admiration for your tolerance and patience in corresponding about what must be, to you, a very emotional subject.

Peace,
Paul


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DmitryR
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Reged: 10/20/05
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #507422 - 07/12/06 01:38 PM

I think that today we are mature enough as a nation to look in a mirror and say that, yes, we did expell most of the arabs of then Palestine, during and right after the 1948 war.
And honest enough to say that we had no other choice but to do it, because otherwise the creation of Jewish national state would be impossible.

It is also worth noting, that for the most part the inhabitants of the evicted villages were not innocent bystanders. Most of the mature male arabs in Palestine took active part in the attempted genocide of the Jewish population, initiated by neighboring Arab states.

Let's have no illusions. Had we lost the 1948 war, the entire Jewish community of Palestine, including those that had just excaped the claws of the Nazis, would have been massacred. It was us or them. Had we kept the majority of Arabs here, the Jewish state would have been impossible - instead living in the middle of Tel-Aviv would have been like living in the middle of Gaza or Hebron today. This is not why we came here, is it? This is also the reason why there must never, ever be any way for the refugees to return - otherwise we will simply loose the state.

I have no regrets, although I do recognize the tagedy of the situation. We have no way back, to the past where the millions of us would again be subject to the whim of some nation suddenly gone insane. The chief purpose behind the creation of Israel - "Never Again" - has to be maintained, and for it to be maintained, Israel must by necessity stay a jewish nation-state - no way back, no refugee return. That's just it. On the other hand, the palestinians have no way BUT back, because the Arab states refuse, on purpose, to assimilate them, by that reducing them to a status of weapon against Israel. They fight for what they see is justice, but our ideas of what is just are completely opposite.

So, here we are. All that remains to be said, is this -
We, the Jews of Israel, either accept that the UN decision to create the state of Israel in 1948 was wrong, and we are not worthy of sovereignity - and then the only honest thing left to do would be to pick up the luggage, go to airport and fly straight to some place like Canada or Australia...
Or, we forget about our silly attempts to try to stay with our hands clean while living in the slaughterhouse, and we start maintaining the law and order here - OUR law and order - using the same methods King Hussein used during Black September and Assad used in Hama. They are still in power, are they not?

If we will keep on refusing to accept the fact that we are in the Middle East, and not on the beach of Geneva Lake - consider the first option, and emigrate to Europe. Ah, and don't forget to visit Auschwitz on your way there. That just might remind you of the reason that was for the state you just gave up on.


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ben_and_his_bong
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Reged: 10/07/05
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: DmitryR]
      #507991 - 07/12/06 11:17 PM

I think your first option is by far the more honest and honorable one. Just my 2 cents.

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esterrettModerator
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Re: Nakba- The Palestinian Catastrophe [Re: Thameen_Darby]
      #508787 - 07/13/06 10:47 AM

It appears that this discussion has run it's course within the parameters of this BBS. There's a lot more to be said on both sides, but this is not the proper forum for that kind of interchange.

There are MANY discussion boards and forums elsewhere (about 12.6 million, in fact) where political discussions regarding this topic is not only appropriate, but encouraged. Please continue this in one of those places.

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7/19 - This thread is now reopened for discussion about the placemarks. The current situation in the region is off-topic, as is any other reply not directly related to this excellent collection of placemarks.

Keep it civil. In here, we are not Israeli, Palestinian, Eastern, Middle Eastern, Western, or anything other than fellow Google Earth Community citizens. Any replies added to this thread that obviously denigrate, insult or otherwise detract from the diplomatic tone set by the original poster will be removed, as per the BBS rules.

Let's play nice, and learn something in the process.


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The Schutzstaffel (German for "Protective Squadron"), abbreviated SS, grew from a small paramilitary unit to an elite force that served as the Führer's "Praetorian Guard," the Nazi Party's "Shield Squadron" and a force with as much political influence as the regular German armed forces. Built upon the Nazi racial ideology, the SS, under He