diane9247
Humanitarian
Reged: 01/15/07
Posts: 1856
Loc: Californian in Oregon
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If you're not depressed by this vast deforestation, you're a lot tougher than I am. I wonder what we'll see here in 2 years and how much more area the yellow runoff will cover at the mouth of the Amazon.
Edit: In response to Budd1's comment that there must be sadder places on Earth, I've edited my title from "Saddest" to "Sad..." 
I strive for accuracy! 
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Edited by diane9247 (08/03/08 01:24 AM)
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heamit
Master Cartographer
Reged: 10/26/06
Posts: 2333
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Hi diane9247!
You are right, it is terribly sad to see this kind of deforestation on Google Earth.
However I sometimes feel a bit sorry for Brazil in all this, and the flak that they are receiving. think it is important to remember that many of us currently live in completely deforested ex-forest. Vast tracts of the USA and Australia, for example, and certainly virtually all of Europe, were once thickly forested. And we owe a great deal of our current prosperity to the fact that our forefathers (rightly or wrongly) deforested them. We are much more aware of it now, and conscious of the damage we are doing to our planet. But like I said, we can thank our own previous environmental vandalism for the fact that we are now wealthy enough to invent computers, buy one and look at the effects of entirely similar processes happening today.
I'm not saying that I agree with the deforestation of the Amazon! I think it is terrible. I just sometimes feel that Brazil is getting a lot of bad press in all this. I think there are many ways that we can help, every day, to help put an end to this kind of thing for example by not eating at places like McDonalds who obtain their meat (or have in the past) from cleared land in these countries and also by supporting developing countries by buying products from them and trading fairly with them for example by lifting our own agricultural import quotas and allowing free trade.
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diane9247
Humanitarian
Reged: 01/15/07
Posts: 1856
Loc: Californian in Oregon
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Heamit -
I completely agree with everything in your post. I do flatter myself in thinking I have an unusual perspective, being an Oregon logger's daughter. And grand-daughter. Those guys suffered greatly and have never really recovered from clear-cutting like mad in the '40s & '50s. I remember my dad talking about how it couldn't possibly last at that pace. Most loggers were mad as hell that they weren't allowed, finally, to keep going to the Canadian border.
So, it's taken at least another generation for new forests & tree farms to mature in a money-making way. It will never be like "the old days" again, it just can't sustain that volume of harvesting. I can't help but see a parallel with Brazil now and Oregon in the good old days. Brazil is on an enormous scale, though, and you really can't replant a rainforest. Whole different kettle of fish. Excuse the inappropriate metaphor.
I feel sorry for the Brazilian farmers who have been starved out of the cities and are desperate to feed their families. But, I just think things are too dire NOT to scream about what Brazil is doing. I wish people had screamed way sooner about the N. CA redwoods and the OR forests.
Anyway, thanks for listening.
D.
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heamit
Master Cartographer
Reged: 10/26/06
Posts: 2333
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Hi again 
Thank you for the interesting insights about Oregon. 
A while back I found some interesting shapes cut into a forest in Slovakia. Community member syzygy, who is very environmentally aware, pointed out that these shapes could be due to sustainable forestry practices and arranged to have the thread moved to the Environment forum. If you are interested, have a look here
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diane9247
Humanitarian
Reged: 01/15/07
Posts: 1856
Loc: Californian in Oregon
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Thanks, I'll take a look. Also some huge areas in far-north CA with clearcuts in a checkerboard pattern. I can think of a couple of environmental/ecological reasons the state makes them do that, but one friend's cynical remark was "so when we drive by on the highway we won't see the full damage!"
Now, on to Slovakia...
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fsev
First Post
Reged: 10/06/07
Posts: 1
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I think that you do not need to go into the center of the Slovakia to find some clearcuts.
There is a plenty of them even in the protected wood park area nearby Bratislava, capitol of the Slovak republic. The wood cutting in this area still continue.
Anybody who can help to stop it is welcome.
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GaianHope
First Post
Reged: 11/21/07
Posts: 1
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Well it's actually a common practice now to clear cut in areas that aren't visible from major roadways, hypothetically because it reduces visual aesthetic value, but I believe it's the out of sight out of mind principle... which is the same logic behind exporting all our waste. If less people see it they face less communal opposition and thus, less money is wasted in law suits and upheld projects..... crafty, but sad.
As for the Amazon pic, I actually shed a tear.... it's like scar tissue on a heart. That area needs to be protected some how (and yes I know, we need to think of the economic condition of the residents too.)
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budd1
Tourist
Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 2
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hi diane 9247,i am pretty certain that there are sadder places than this on earth .
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Hello everyone.I have had to retire due to having thyroid cancer,but I just get on with everything.
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geveN
Cartographer
Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 279
Loc: New Zealand
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I am not very knowledgeable about these things, but down here in New Zealand, in my many weekend drives in the country north of Auckland, the management of green spaces seems done on a well planned schedule.
All hill slopes from the bottom up to the peak are covered with trees grown for commercial use. The vast outlying farmland around the hill is used for agriculture and grazing, mainly for grazing-New Zealand is sheep country!!!
The 'forested' cluster of trees on the hill slopes is cut down one section at one time, and is immediately seeded(?) or planted with fresh saplings; and I suppose there is a law governing this activity that the farmer is not to cut down the other sections of trees untill the new saplings grow into young plants.
I suppose this kind of cooperation and enlightened activity can be expected in a country with a small population (NZ has around 4.3 million people.)
geveN
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geveN
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drtbkdav
First Post
Reged: 11/25/07
Posts: 1
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My guess is that unless someone maintains it, In 20 years you wont be able to pick out this spot from google earth. That forest is the fastest growing forest in the world.
I thought the rain forest should have been totally destroyed by know if you remember the rate that they said it was going back in the 80's. now 20 years later its still vast and mostly untouched!
Just shows you what a bunch of liars the greens are!
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dmaleny
Tourist
Reged: 11/26/07
Posts: 12
Loc: Qld AUST
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Does the last guy really believe what he's saying or just stirring - it's not a greeny issue at all - it's a global concern. At the rate this type of forest is being removed it is already effecting bio diversity (extinctions) and climate modulations. It is definately not growing faster than it is being removed !!!! The map is clearly showing us that much. 
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heamit
Master Cartographer
Reged: 10/26/06
Posts: 2333
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Hi drtbkdav and welcome to Google Earth
Quote:
My guess is that unless someone maintains it, In 20 years you wont be able to pick out this spot from google earth. That forest is the fastest growing forest in the world.
Have a look at Europe. At most of North America. At most of the east coast of Australia.
All of these places were once densely forested.
If you want to go back just a little further, have a look at North Africa! (Sahara).
The fact is that forests do not grow back. The area will either be used for farming or other human exploitation (as in the first couple of examples I gave you) or it degenerates to desert due to erosion (as in the latter). And even in those cases where it does grow back, it will usually not be in the form it once was (due to the destroyed ecosystem as explained by the previous poster) but as scrub land or savanna.
Quote:
Just shows you what a bunch of liars the greens are!
I don't know whether this comment is terribly helpful...
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diane9247
Humanitarian
Reged: 01/15/07
Posts: 1856
Loc: Californian in Oregon
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Quote:
Just shows you what a bunch of liars the greens are!
If you look in your Webster's under "hyperbole," you might find the above quoted as an example. 
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Women for Women International - For the special needs of women surviving war.
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Edited by diane9247 (08/17/08 11:36 AM)
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sateliteoflove
Tourist
Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Netherlands
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Hi Diane,
Cutting down the Amazon forest is certainly sad. The images however are in many way's similar to large parts of Europe. We cut down most our forests long ago. Unfortunately it gives us little right to speak up against Brazilians. It's a classic dilemma of environmental issues. For the good of us all we should want to conserve the remaining natural forests, but the economic forces are otherwise. In fact we can't have our beefburgers or spicy chicken if it weren't for the cattle grazing and soybean fields in the Amazon.
Which brings me to my real question for this forum. I've included a pin to a place somewhere just south of the amazon forest, in the north of the Mato Grosso. To me it looks like a a pretty dry and deserted place, but there are signs it was once covered in forest. But at regular spaces you see double squares of a light blue/ green colour, and paths leading to it. My guess is they are waterhole for cattle.
Diane, as you know (see my forum discussion 'Inspired by Google Earth') I'm interested in using Google Earth as a source of inspiration for my paintings. But before I start on a new painting I want to know what it is I'm seeing. If I want to get a strong image of a 'sad place on earth' accross I need to be sure this really was primordial forest not so long ago, and that this really is a place where beefburgers to be graze whats left to graze. So: does anybody out there know what this image means?
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Evert Schut
http:/googleearthart.blogspot.com
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Valkyrie40
Tourist
Reged: 03/20/08
Posts: 5
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Hi budd1!
I couldn't agree more with you! India is one such sad example of deforestation. This is being looked upon as a national emergency along with saving the Tigers ( numbers of which are dwindling away - caused by deforestation and destructuion of their natural habitat!).
The tree planting programs have taken off with a bang and ended in a whimper as corruption outweighs incentives. 
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JavaGAR
Explorer
Reged: 10/07/06
Posts: 478
Loc: New York State
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drtbkdav:
The perspective you have provided necessitates a close examination of this topic.
A superficial look at a second growth forest from above may give the impression that it has recovered from clear-cutting. However, undisturbed tropical rainforests are among the most biologically diverse of all ecosystems. When one of these forests is clearcut, a great number of species that depend on the trees for food and habitat are destroyed as well. These include rare orchids, other plants, birds, insects, and many other species, quite likely, some of which have not even been recognized, yet. Many of these tree-dependent species only begin to return after the trees have re-established themselves and are reaching maturity. Once the tree-dependent species have returned, other species that, in turn, depend on them might begin a comeback.
Erosion, leaching of released nutrients, and other physical changes that follow clear-cutting add to the complexity of the recovery situation. As a result of the intricate set of interdependencies involving the physical and biological environment, many types of tropical and temperate forest require a long time for true recovery. During this period, some of the rare species with small natural ranges may become lost forever. People who are unable to appreciate these species for their own sake should remember that a lost species may have been one that had medical or other utilitarian potential.
A recovering ecosystem seen in an aerial photo may not actually be as "green" as it appears. We need to take a deeper look at the systems that sustain us before we engage in uninformed and potentially destructive actions. This is true in one's own community (mine, included) as well as the rest of the world.
Edited by JavaGAR (03/26/08 09:39 AM)
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diane9247
Humanitarian
Reged: 01/15/07
Posts: 1856
Loc: Californian in Oregon
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Hi Evert -
Yes, I believe those are cattle ponds. The odd thing, as you stated, is that one is light and the other darker blue-green. I found another such example in American cattle country (perhaps South Dakota?), but it was very late last night and I didn't think to mark it - though I did think of your question. There were two side-by-side, not quite so perfect as yours, more free-form, but definitely manmade and in known cattle ranch territory. And, one was dark, the other light!  If it was S.D., it was an area that was never forested. If I find them again I'll add them here.
As for your point about expecting Brazil to toe the line, when Europe and the US didn't - I do understand that and agree we shouldn't be self-righteous. But, we humans know a lot more now than we did in the previous centuries. Among the differences: population, which is so far out of control now it is nearly impossible to restrict demand for any resource until it's irretrievable. How can we not try, though?
Brazil has a chance to lead the world in preventing complete deforestation - and I suspect that Indonesia, or the Dem. Republic of Congo, either can't or won't ever do it. They have endless wars and political upheavals to contend with - the perfect atmosphere for a resource free-for-all. Who knows, yet, whether China will have the incentive to conserve resources, much less curb demand. (I read an article today, while waiting for an appointment , about the massive export of soybeans, which you mention, from Brazil to China.) They are relative newcomers to the practice of consuming and selling all manner of goods and raking in gobs of money, so I don't blame them for thinking "to hell with you people telling us what to do - don't deny us our day!"
I just hope the US, lost in its own quagmire for six years, can join with Europe to use friendly means to change the practice of deforestation around the globe - using themselves as the best examples of what should not be done. It might require that we give up some of the comfy lifestyle and the piles of money we've gained while depleting our resources and much of theirs, in order to assist Brazil, et al., with common-sense resource management.
All very high-blown, and easy for me to say... but I do worry about the very habitability of the earth and hate to see us ignoring the duty that belongs to us all. I don't want to live in one enormous Haiti, the current microcosm of what our great-grandchildren could face.
Quote:
Haiti is one of the many developing countries that has sought to increase its growth and end its cycle of poverty. One of the ways in which it has done this has been by cutting down the forests. Most of Haiti's population live below the poverty line. Nearly 70 percent of all Haitians depend on the agriculture sector, which consists mainly of small-scale subsistence farming and employs about two thirds of the economically active work force. However, extreme soil erosion and deforestation mean that Haiti's environment is one of the most devastated in the world. Only 30 percent of the land is suitable for cultivation, with the result that the majority of the rural poor have a desperate struggle for survival on marginal areas. (From a 1997 ICE Case Study: Deforestation in Haiti, by Kristen Picariello.)
Diane
Edited by diane9247 (03/27/08 12:17 AM)
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xtaaxt
Tourist
Reged: 03/26/08
Posts: 23
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is there any original woods in Euro?
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heamit
Master Cartographer
Reged: 10/26/06
Posts: 2333
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Hi sateliteoflove,
I agree - it certainly looks like a set of water holes.
This is an interesting and important thread and I like to monitor it.
Not wanting to change the subject or anything : but I find it incredibly curious how the 'newgrowth' trees around this area are spaced. They are not at all haphazard, but very evenly (albeit irregularly) spaced some 50 to 80 feet between each one. It seems most unlikely to me that new growth would regenerate in this manner. One would expect 'clumps' of vegetation determined by the fall of seeds and happenstance. However these trees look almost as though they were sprinkled evenly about the landscape.
While not wishing to deviate from the topic of this thread per se - I do wonder what makes the trees grow back like this? Far apart and with no shrubbery etc in between?
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Pragueimp
Explorer
Reged: 02/20/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Prague
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Hi Heamit
This vegetation pattern is almost certainly due to grazing. The individual trees and groups of trees will be tall enough so that their branches are out of reach of grazing animals. Or they may be thorny or unpalatable species. The area between them will be grazed so that trees cannot regenerate.
This can actually be a very sustainable mixture of forestry and agriculture - enough grazing for livestock with trees producing timber, fruit and nuts. The trees can also offer shade for the livestock.
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Mark
Environmental English
www.envenglish.com
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Pragueimp
Explorer
Reged: 02/20/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Prague
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Hi fsev
Forestry can be sustainable.
The clear cuts that you (and others) have identified are relatively small, suggesting they are part of a managed system. They will almost certainly be replanted.
Even a 'protected' area can allow sustainable management.
A lot of Slovakia (and Czech) was planted with large areas of single species (monoculture) and often non-native species. There has been a big change in forestry practice recently and there is a move to small plots of mixed species. This helps protect against disease (especially bark beetle attacks) and events such as the devastating wind throw in Slovakia in November 2004 (200kph winds, 4.7 million cubic metres of timber destroyed).
http://www.fao.org/regional/SEUR/events/Zvolen/docs/ReportMoA.pdf
http://www.flickr.com/photos/63667026@N00/397732438
Cau
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Mark
Environmental English
www.envenglish.com
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Pragueimp
Explorer
Reged: 02/20/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Prague
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Hi xtaaxt
’’is there any original woods in Euro?’’ you ask.
In western and central Europe the answer is no.
Before humans arrived Europe would have been largely forested. But almost every piece of land in Europe has now been influenced by human activity, either directly (felling trees) or indirectly (grazing by domesticated animals). In the UK we have ‘Ancient woodland’, but this is considered to be land continuously wooded since AD1600 (hardly ‘ancient’, but the wildlife associated with such sites is very important). Other European countries have similar classifications.
So, although there may be an old forest near you it is likely to have undergone many changes throughout history and will not be ‘original’. Even if the forest has been there for centuries, it’s structure will have changed due to the effects of sheep, cattle, and even deer populations which have been introduced and maintained by humans.
It’s only when you go east that you start to find ‘original woods’. The forests of eastern Poland are considered as such. They are ‘primaeval’ – almost untouched by human activity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82owieski_National_Park
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Mark
Environmental English
www.envenglish.com
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sateliteoflove
Tourist
Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Netherlands
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[Not wanting to change the subject or anything : but I find it incredibly curious how the 'newgrowth' trees around this area are spaced. They are not at all haphazard, but very evenly (albeit irregularly) spaced some 50 to 80 feet between each one. It seems most unlikely to me that new growth would regenerate in this manner. One would expect 'clumps' of vegetation determined by the fall of seeds and happenstance. However these trees look almost as though they were sprinkled evenly about the landscape.
While not wishing to deviate from the topic of this thread per se - I do wonder what makes the trees grow back like this? Far apart and with no shrubbery etc in between?
Hi Heamit,
Good question! I read an article in National Geographic about the decline of the Amazon forest. I understand some of the land is cultivated intensively for a few years after which the soil is leached to such an extent that it's only useful for grazing cattle. I imagine during the cultivated period they might leave a few trees here and there for shade (if it was small scale farming). Grazing cattle can't reach higher branches so the trees remain. Does that sound likely?
Evert.
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Evert Schut
http:/googleearthart.blogspot.com
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sateliteoflove
Tourist
Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Netherlands
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Hi Diane,
Thanks for the reply. Despite what happens in the Dem Republic of Congo, there are quite large and relatively stable parts of the Congo basin (Camaroon, Guinee, Gabon and the other Congo (Brazzaville) where there is hope for sustainable forestry. Large parts of the forests are protected by law - only sustainable forest management (of the original forest) is allowed. I was lucky to be able to visit several logging companies in the area (3 years ago). Some now have an FSC certificate for sustainable forest management of virtualy virgin forest. They harvest about 3 trees of a certain size per hectare and rotate with a frequency of 30 years. In this way the forest ecology undergoes a minimal and temporary distortion. Areas which are ecologically more sensitive or special (elephant or Gorilla hide outs for instance) are exempted from logging. I thought it was pretty impressive. Some of these consessions were about the size of a third of my country. Well maybe that's still small, my country being smaller than most US states. The difference with Brazil is that in Africa most of the forest is governement owned whereas in Brazil it mostly large landowners who do what they want, the laws can't be enforced.
I believe the sustainable use of tropical hardwood could be a sound economic incentive for maintaining tropical forests. If only large consumers (like my own government) decline from using anything but sustainable wood. If you realise that the market value (in US or Europe) of one hardwood tree could be anything up to 10.000 US$, you can work out the rest of the economic picture!
I did'nt realise Haiti has become an ecological disaster area. I'll check it out on GE.
Bye,
Evert.
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Evert Schut
http:/googleearthart.blogspot.com
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Pragueimp
Explorer
Reged: 02/20/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Prague
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Hi Evert
I posted this earlier - but maybe didn't link it properly?
''Hi Heamit
This vegetation pattern is almost certainly due to grazing. The individual trees and groups of trees will be tall enough so that their branches are out of reach of grazing animals. Or they may be thorny or unpalatable species. The area between them will be grazed so that trees cannot regenerate.
This can actually be a very sustainable mixture of forestry and agriculture - enough grazing for livestock with trees producing timber, fruit and nuts. The trees can also offer shade for the livestock.''
So I agree that your idea definitely sounds likely. Difficult to tell how sustainable this particular area is - it's quite large.
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Mark
Environmental English
www.envenglish.com
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Pragueimp
Explorer
Reged: 02/20/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Prague
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Hi Evert
''If only large consumers (like my own government) decline from using anything but sustainable wood''
Absolutely true - we have to make sure that we look for the FSC mark when buying any hardwood product:
http://www.fsc.org/en/
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Mark
Environmental English
www.envenglish.com
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erreka
Gamer
Reged: 03/19/08
Posts: 348
Loc: Basque Country
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Hi diane. My english is very bad but I´ll try it. Yes, it´s a sad place. Compare it with previous years.
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Pragueimp
Explorer
Reged: 02/20/08
Posts: 193
Loc: Prague
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Hi erreka
This is great - shows the problem very clearly. Can you give us some details about why this has happened - is it small scale farming or logging? For local produce or export?
Thanks
Imp
P.S. nothing wrong with your English!
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Mark
Environmental English
www.envenglish.com
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erreka
Gamer
Reged: 03/19/08
Posts: 348
Loc: Basque Country
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Hello Imp.The government built the road Cuiabá-Porto Velho. They finished it in 1960 and it crosses Rondonia. In 1980 the World Bank decided to pave it. The images of 1975 y 1986 show great colonys of immigrants, near the road, in the region of Ariquemes. The "backbones" are the result to cutting the trees to get new lands. Principally, cattle ranches and annual cultivations. Coffee, rubber and cacao, less than 10%.
More info: http://www.mongabay.com/brazil.html
In Matto Grosso, deforestation grows more faster than the rest of the regions: large mono-cultivations of soy (Maggi group, company of the governor of Matto Grosso), looging...
Edited by erreka (04/17/08 10:01 AM)
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